Donald Trump was on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” on Friday, where he discussed his thoughts on the Kim Davis controversy. You can see the full interview and transcript below:
HOST: Let me ask you about that Kentucky county court clerk. You were asked about that at your appearance yesterday and said you hadn’t had time to look into it. Now, what do you think? She’s refusing to grant same-sex marriage licenses. She’s been ordered by a court now to do it. She’s been ordered to jail. Some of your opponents are standing with her and saying she has a right to do this. What do you think?
DONALD TRUMP: Well, look, the decision came down from the Supreme Court, Gene, so I’m a believer in both sides of the picture. I would say the simple answer is: let her clerks do it. Now from what I understand, she’s not letting her clerks do it either. The other simple answer is rather than going through this, because it’s really a very, very sticky situation, a terrible situation — 30 miles away, they have other places. They have many other places where you get licensed. And you have them actually quite nearby. That’s another alternative. I hate to see her being put in jail. I understand what they’re doing. It would be certainly nice if she didn’t do it but other people in her office do it, but from what I understand she won’t allow other people to issue a license.
JOE SCARBOROUGH: But Donald, bottom line is though, the Supreme Court makes a decision, that’s the law of the land, right?
TRUMP: You have to go with it. I mean, you have to go with it. The decision has been made and that is the law of the land.
[Crosstalk]TRUMP: And you know, she can take a pass and let someone else in the office do it in terms of religious, so it’s a very tough situation. But we are a nation, as I said yesterday, a nation of laws. And I was talking about borders and I was talking about other things, but you know, it applies to this also, and the Supreme Court has ruled. It would be nice to have other people in her office do what they have to do.
Thomas Valentine is a researcher for APIA and a junior at the Franciscan University of Steubenville.
91 comments
WHAT A TANGLED WEB WE WEAVE ONCE IN PRACTICING TO DECEIVE. ……………………………….IT IS WRONG TO USE FAITH, WHEN SHE KNEW JUST WHAT SHE WAS DOING, SUCH A HYPOCRITE
SHE SURELY MADE SOME LOOK LIKE FOOLS. IN THE NAME OF FAITH…THAT WOMAN NEEDS TO DO SOME SOUL SEARCHING. ……………………………. The heat around gay marriage is obscuring what a simple distinction this actually is. But suppose the Rowan County Clerk was a devout Hindu
MORESurvivor Frontman is Outraged That Kim Davis Used ‘Eye of the Tiger’Ted Cruz to Visit Jailed Kentucky Clerk Kim DavisCaitlyn Jenner Says She Wasn’t Always In Favor of Gay MarriageSurvivor of TV Attack Plans Tribute for Slain Journalists NBC NewsMore Tests Needed to Determine Tyler Sash’s Death NBC NewsPilot Who Saved Burning Flight: ‘I’m Finished Flying’ NBC NewsKim Davis, clerk of Rowan County, Kentucky, was remanded to jail by a federal judge on Thursday for her continued refusal to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. She says to do so would violate her religious beliefs and—as her lawyers put it—“substantially burden” her First Amendment freedom of religion.
Either Davis wants to go to jail for her faith, or she should get a new lawyer, because that argument seriously confuses the line between her rights as a citizen and her role as a public official.
As a citizen protected by the First Amendment, Davis is absolutely free to believe that homosexuality is “a Heaven or Hell decision.” In fact, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2011—a case involving the late provocateur Fred Phelps—that she is free to chant hateful anti-gay slogans at military funerals if she wishes. She can’t be forced to attend a same-sex wedding, to participate in one, or to send a gift to the happy couple.
But the First Amendment does not give her the power to decide whether same sex marriages are lawful in the State of Kentucky. That question was settled this summer by the Supreme Court, which ruled 5-to-4 that the U.S. Constitution guarantees the freedom to marry in all 50 states.
Davis has said that she “never sought to be in this position,” with her faith telling her to ignore the law. But in fact, she did seek it—last year, when she ran for the office. Under Kentucky law, county clerks are responsible for certifying that applicants for a marriage license have met the legal requirements to wed. Are they both freely consenting and over 18? If younger, do they have permission from parents or guardians? Have they paid the licensing fee? And so on.
These requirements apply equally to same sex couples, and once they are met, the job of the county clerk is to issue a license—regardless of whether she personally believes the pair should get married.
The heat around same-sex marriage is obscuring what a simple distinction this actually is. But suppose the Rowan County Clerk was a devout Hindu. It would not be permissible to force her to eat beef at an office function, for that would violate the Hindu taboo on harming cows. But that official would not be allowed to refuse to issue a marriage license to a couple with plans to serve beef at their wedding reception, nor could a Hindu official deny a construction permit just because the building is intended to be a steakhouse.
Another public official’s faith might countenance arranged marriages of children. The First Amendment would protect her freedom to believe that such marriages are culturally appropriate. But she would not be permitted to act on that belief by issuing a marriage license to a child.
A Quaker pacifist who serves as a county clerk has a right to believe that war is an immoral violation of the Biblical commandment against killing. But that doesn’t mean that she could refuse to issue a marriage license to a soldier or a Marine.
In short, Davis’s private, personal beliefs are covered by the First Amendment. But when she steps into her official role, she is no longer a private citizen—she is now an agent of the government. And the same First Amendment that protects her private freedom of religion bars the government from having any official religious beliefs.
Davis has tried to wriggle out of her dilemma by refusing to issue any marriage licenses at all. But that’s another way of saying that she doesn’t want to do her job. It’s not as if she has been conscripted into service. A number of other candidates also wanted the job when Davis ran in 2014.
The solution for Kim Davis is simple—though she may find it painful. Resign as Rowan County Clerk. Then, if she wants to, she can write letters to the editor or march wearing a sandwich board or troll the Internet or shout from the rooftops to express her views on same sex marriage. Meanwhile, her fellow citizens can get on with their constitutionally protected lives.
PORTRAITS OF THE GAY MARRIAGE REVOLUTION.
CindyRyan1 .Do I back Ms. Davis, no I do not I back my country and its laws and rules, rather I like them or not.We live in a country of laws and rules, rules made by the Supreme Court, Congress makes our LAWS, and if a law they MAKE is disputed, and attorney files an appeal with the SUPREME COURT OF APPEALS, THE GREATEST COURT OF OUR LAND. Now the Supreme Court, can choose to listen to this appeal, they can turn it down and not listen to the appeal and they can choose to not look at at all……In the case of same sex marriages the court chose to hear this appeal and make a decision on the SAME SEX MARRIAGES, and they did, They ruled that same sex marriages is to be legal in all 50 STATES, over ruling the ban that some states had on same sex marriages. Now rather you or I like it or not it is legal and binding.(When I first heard it, it disturbed me to no end, All I did was pray, after praying this is what came to me. We are all God’s children, we are all sinners, I am not here to judge, nor am I here to condemn them, I do not know what they go through I do not walk in their shoes. I just pray for them as I pray for all us sinners.)
As a citizen of this great country it bothers me how few understand the SUPREME COURT OF APPEALS and what they do….So I post this for their benfit.
The Supreme Court has a special role to play in the United States system of government. The Constitution gives it the power to check, if necessary, the actions of the President and Congress.
It can tell a President that his actions are not allowed by the Constitution. It can tell Congress that a law it passed violated the U.S. Constitution and is, therefore, no longer a law. It can also tell the government of a state that one of its laws breaks a rule in the Constitution.
The Supreme Court is the final judge in all cases involving laws of Congress, and the highest law of all — the Constitution.
The Supreme Court, however, is far from all-powerful. Its power is limited by the other two branches of government. The President nominates justices to the court. The Senate must vote its approval of the nominations. The whole Congress also has great power over the lower courts in the federal system. District and appeals courts are created by acts of Congress. These courts may be abolished if Congress wishes it.
The Supreme Court is like a referee on a football field. The Congress, the President, the state police, and other government officials are the players. Some can pass laws, and others can enforce laws. But all exercise power within certain boundaries. These boundaries are set by the Constitution. As the “referee” in the U.S. system of government, it is the Supreme Court’s job to say when government officials step out-of-bounds.
A prominent attorney who had argued hundreds of cases before the Supreme Court once remarked that the Supreme Court is not final because it’s right, it is right because it is final. The Court’s position as the court of last appeal and as the highest court in the land means that its decisions are binding and largely unchangeable. Once the Court has ruled, its decisions have all the effect and permanency of law.
Ross M Bagne POOR DONALD READ WHAT POOR DONALD KNOWS’ THIS WILL EDUCATE YOU SO WILL NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AND SOUND UNEDUCATED:::::.Do I back Ms. Davis, no I do not I back my country and its laws and rules, rather I like them or not.We live in a country of laws and rules, rules made by the Supreme Court, Congress makes our LAWS, and if a law they MAKE is disputed, and attorney files an appeal with the SUPREME COURT OF APPEALS, THE GREATEST COURT OF OUR LAND. Now the Supreme Court, can choose to listen to this appeal, they can turn it down and not listen to the appeal and they can choose to not look at at all……In the case of same sex marriages the court chose to hear this appeal and make a decision on the SAME SEX MARRIAGES, and they did, They ruled that same sex marriages is to be legal in all 50 STATES, over ruling the ban that some states had on same sex marriages. Now rather you or I like it or not it is legal and binding.(When I first heard it, it disturbed me to no end, All I did was pray, after praying this is what came to me. We are all God’s children, we are all sinners, I am not here to judge, nor am I here to condemn them, I do not know what they go through I do not walk in their shoes. I just pray for them as I pray for all us sinners.)
As a citizen of this great country it bothers me how few understand the SUPREME COURT OF APPEALS and what they do….So I post this for their benfit.
The Supreme Court has a special role to play in the United States system of government. The Constitution gives it the power to check, if necessary, the actions of the President and Congress.It can tell a President that his actions are not allowed by the Constitution. It can tell Congress that a law it passed violated the U.S. Constitution and is, therefore, no longer a law. It can also tell the government of a state that one of its laws breaks a rule in the Constitution.The Supreme Court is the final judge in all cases involving laws of Congress, and the highest law of all — the Constitution.The Supreme Court, however, is far from all-powerful. Its power is limited by the other two branches of government. The President nominates justices to the court. The Senate must vote its approval of the nominations. The whole Congress also has great power over the lower courts in the federal system. District and appeals courts are created by acts of Congress. These courts may be abolished if Congress wishes it.The Supreme Court is like a referee on a football field. The Congress, the President, the state police, and other government officials are the players. Some can pass laws, and others can enforce laws. But all exercise power within certain boundaries. These boundaries are set by the Constitution. As the “referee” in the U.S. system of government, it is the Supreme Court’s job to say when government officials step out-of-bounds.
A prominent attorney who had argued hundreds of cases before the Supreme Court once remarked that the Supreme Court is not final because it’s right, it is right because it is final. The Court’s position as the court of last appeal and as the highest court in the land means that its decisions are binding and largely unchangeable. Once the Court has ruled, its decisions have all the effect and permanency of law.
DonnyCase NoraCraig no, you imply that, not me. We all get to pick our pulpit to preach from… preaching is just fine… if she opt’s to preach from the street she can do that, if she chooses to preach from jail, she’s free to do that as well. Which ever path she opt’s for is her choice. But anyone who defies the law has chosen the latter pulpit.. Not saying that’s a bad strategy to get a huge audience to preach to..
There is more than one thing at play here.. (1) the right to speak up for your faith, (2) the issue of an oath of office and when you violate that oath what are the ramifications (3) the issue of accommodations (4) the visibility value of the “civil disobedient” messaging strategy…. and so forth. Not to mention the whole “rule of law” issue.
Th
DonnyCase jk105
I don’t plan to join you in hell. After all, I don’t worship a god who commands us to kill disobedient children.
I pray for your deformed soul.
jk105 I don’t associate with illogical radicals. But thanks for asking. Have a nice burn.
NoraCraig jk105 DonnyCase Since I was born Gay, yes I believe God made me Gay. But we will find that out when we pass.
Otherwise, yes, I agree with all you wrote. I don’t judge or hate Donny Old Boy, however, God did not put me on earth to be his punching bag. I won’t silently suffer his bigotry.
DonnyCase NoraCraig Yes, you are an unrepentant bigot. I wasn’t fooled.
Why do you worship a god who sanctions slavery?
Why do you worship depravity?
NoraCraig jk105 DonnyCase
Actually you lost the debate.
Donny does not support legal same-sex marriage. He would use the brute force of government to deny m my religious liberty and constitutional rights–all in the name of his brand of religion. Instead you deflected.
I really do suggest you bone up on psychology, sociology and human motivations. We didn’t outlaw slavery by silently suffering racists. We didn’t conquer Nazis by Jews silently suffering anti-semitism. Likewise, I will not silently suffer the homophobic bigoted abuse by a so-called Christian who sanctions slavery and commands us to murder disobedient children.
Hugs back.
DonnyCase jk105
Retarded Idiot!
Actually the retarded idiot is the belching hate all day, claiming to find it in the Bible, but yet tap dances around the question of whether or not he sanctions slavery, as it is sanctioned in the Bible.
You withdraw further conversing because you have been exposed as a straightforward liar.
You worship depravity.
I pray for your deformed soul.
DonnyCase NoraCraig
I doubt Jesus would approve of you sanctioning slavery or murdering disobedient children. You worship depravity.
Jesus, however, blessed my same-sex marriage.
NoraCraig DonnyCase Ah, You assumed checkmate before the final moves were made! That’s not a wise calculation as you read my above post..
NoraCraig DonnyCase Then you imply “refuse to contribute and go to jail”? Taking a passive stand against sin while they fight for the victory holds little room for success. This advancement against our beliefs has to be confronted head on or it will only get worse. History has proven this. Im not saying we overpower, I’m saying we have a voice! That voice says what Jesus would want, not having a holy union such as matrimony defiled as was the money changers in the temple.
DonnyCase NoraCraig No I did NOT say “willingly participate”.. Jesus refused to get into civil arguments.. “render unto Cesar what is Cesar’s”. Civil law is Cesar’s business (our elected officials in this case)… Any who don’t want to participate can step aside OUT of Cesar’s realm to stay true to their beliefs… what they can’t do is try to force there beliefs on others… civil law = force. Jesus did not “use” civil law to make folk do things his way… so WWJD means we can’t either. (point? <grin>)
NoraCraig DonnyCase Again you make a valid point, I can tell you have great skills in debating. My use of the temple was a futile attempt to show a period where Jesus actually applied anger to prove a point..you are right, he did not use anger much at all in his work. As I see it, you feel Christians should willingly accept and participate in sinful activities to follow WWJD? This leads humanity into destruction as sin takes over and becomes the norm. I find that illogical and not something Jesus would support in any part of history.
jk105 NoraCraig DonnyCase We all have to tolerate the intolerable… that’s just a fact of life. Donny has conceded the point that civil law can’t be RULED by religious tenant… as did you, BTW…. So… I actually won the debate… LOL LOL
Honey, discrimination is something all around us all the time as it’s HUMAN NATURE to bond to a “tribe”.. In olden days one author noted in some American Indian languages the word for “stranger” was the same as “enemy. Suspicion of anything “different” is an INSTINCTUAL survival mechanism… not a function of logic. “My Tribe” is how human society happens to be structured…
I really do suggest you bone up on psychology, sociology, human motivations, etc.. they maybe you’ll be able to debate without getting all emotional about it. Hugs anyway..
jk105 NoraCraig DonnyCase Well, to my knowledge God doesn’t get involved in genetic manipulation to “make” anyone one thing or another. <grin> Mother Nature does have a hand in things and it’s a rather random process (gene paring). God doesn’t “make” us be or do anything… that’s what the parable of choice in Genesis is all about.
Now what happens at those Pearly Gates is certainly not mine to determine. I found an interesting dissertation on usurping the role of God… here’s a piece of it if you two are interested.
“Paul begins this letter to the Romans calling himself a servant of http://www.biblicaljesus.org/. He reminds us that we are all His servants (verses 7-8). A servant does not have the same rights and responsibilities as a master. Though we are permitted the right of making an appraisal of conduct, we are not permitted the right of passing judgment upon a fellow servant. A fellow servant does not stand or fall at the bar of our judgment. The only judgment that matters is the judgment of our mutual Master. If He is satisfied or displeased, He will act in His good time and in His way. To usurp His responsibility is an act of sheer presumption.”
jk105 JK, You have debate skills of a retarded idiot. I refuse to debate with such stupidity in a person. Your logic is skewed, manifested, and obtuse!. You define something bad then use what you define to show your intolerance of that quality. I find your demeanor offensive and lacking in debate quality. I withdraw further conversing with you in this area because of your childish demeanor. Good day!!
NoraCraig jk105 DonnyCase
Actually you continue to deflect.
As I have REPEATEDLY stated, Donny would use to brute force of government to force me to abide by his rancid interpretation of Bible–and I would not force my religion on him. I am WAY MORE tolerant than DONNY. It would be nice if you actually conceded that point, rather than deflect.
I should not have to tolerate the intolerable.
NoraCraig jk105 DonnyCase
Actually you deflected again. The Bible sanctions slavery and commands us to kill disobedient children–thus so does Donny.
My logic is quite clear. Donny straightforward said my humanity (not my lifestyle, whatever that is!), is sinful because it says so in the Bible. Yet he continues to dance around the question of that very same Bible commanding us murder disobedient children. He is clearly a hypocrite. Donny thinks my humanity is sinful because Donny is a bigot. He blames God for his hate.
Moreover, he and his fellow bigots (Kim Davis, for instance), will use their rancid interpretation of Bible as justification to deny me religious and constitutional rights. I will not silently suffer their abuse.
jk105 NoraCraig DonnyCase BTW a bigot is anyone who is intolerant of those holding different opinions. You are just as intolerant of his POV as he is of your POV. Remember tolerance does not mean you agree with someone, it means you respect their right to think differently than you.
(Lord do I feel OLD today)… Neither of you two is being all that tolerant of the other… which Is what I’ve been trying to TEACH ya’ll in this thread.. <sigh>
Now… hug and shake hands and ACCEPT that neither of you are going to agree with each other… and that’s OK… if everyone agreed the world would be a very boring place <grin> Hugs my friends.
jk105 NoraCraig DonnyCase well, your logic is a tad bit fuzzy JK.. Donny believes your lifestyle is “sinful” as it pertains to getting into heaven. Now, why should you CARE if some think that? Some think if I don’t walk 10 steps behind my hubby or wear a hood over my head I should have my head cut off.. SO WHAT!
I remember what my Dat told me when I’d protest sexual discrimination (was in military in 70’s).. “You’d better toughen up kid and not let them get your goat.” He didn’t say not to fight for what I felt was right… he said fight SMART…
What I’m trying to tell you is it’s not smart to get into a theological argument with anyone who’s belief system is so opposite of yours. The best thing to do in that case is simply agree to disagree and move on. ie: Pick the right battles to fight and don’t get mired in circular discussions.
NoraCraig DonnyCase
And of course, Donny sanctions slavery, Donny sanctions the killing of disobedient children. Donny would have us execute those who work on the Sabbath.
Donny is in no position to complain about Satan.
God made me Gay. God is not Satan.
NoraCraig jk105 DonnyCase
The point is that Donny claims he is compelled to condemn my humanity because it is condemned in the Bible. Therefore, Donny must sanction slavery and believe we need to murder disobedient children–all CLEARLY sanctioned in the Bible. If Donny doesn’t believe these things, he is a straightforward liar. It means he butchers the Bible, tossing aside the bits he doesn’t like (Pro Slavery), but uses the bits he likes (anti-gay) as a weapon to harm people he hates.
Jesus didn’t sanction slavery, and Jesus didn’t say a single word about homosexuality. Tell that to Donny, not me. I take my religion just as seriously as you and Donny. I firmly believe Jesus blessed my same-sex marriage, which was performed in a Christian Church by my pastor.
I agree that this is a civic issue. Tell that to the bigot Donny. As I repeatedly stated, as morally repelled as I am by his rancid interpretation of Bible, I never would use government to deny him marriage. I would never allow government to force his church to participate in a same-sex marriage or be force to hire gay people. Donny, on the other hand, would deny me my religious liberty and constitutional rights.
Moreover, I will not silently suffer his gusher of bigotry. Donny sanctions the murder of disobedient children. If he doesn’t want to be condemned for this depravity, I suggest he be more restrained about exposing his moral shortcomings in public.
DonnyCase NoraCraig <bowing> Thank you, sir… <grin> I dearly love to debate any topic… I’ll take a “point” for that one… LOL As an individual any of us can stand up for what we believe, as Jesus did, but “keep(ing) his temple clean” is not a civil debate topic…
As for satan… he’d dearly love for us all to kill each other and foster hatred… We can’t have a civilized society if we support the concept of forced religious adherence.. People must choose for themselves.
jk105 DonnyCase NoraCraig JK Jesus didn’t “sanction” slavery nor did he preach killing children… “The Children of Israel” phrase (as previously stated is the same darn thing as saying “The People of America”…
Arguing the varied philosophies of different religious sect’s is not the issue here. The difference between civil law and religious dominance of civil law is the topic.
Think about it.. Catholics believe priests and nun’s shouldn’t marry, whereas Lutheran priests can marry, etc… Some thing dancing with snakes is holy, some don’t. Silly to argue those things as folk will believe which ever way they want and logic has little to do with it…
Which is WHY our Founding Fathers were so brilliant to ensure religion did not dominate civil law… We each have our own relationship with God… whatever your’s is is fine for you… mine fine for me, and Donny’s for him. None of us three have the right to FORCE each other to our way of belief…
So how about we all hug and recognize how truly blessed we are to argue incessantly things that would get you beheaded in other countries.
DonnyCase NoraCraig
Except Donny Old Boy, Jesus blessed my same-sex marriage.
Why do you worship a god who sanctions slavery?
DonnyCase NoraCraig
Except Donny Old Boy, you have no monopoly on God or religion. As I stated, God blessed my same sex marriage in my Christian Church. You weren’t invited.
Why do you keep deflecting from my point? Why do you worship a god who sanctions slavery? Why do you worship a god who commands us to kill disobedient children.
Flush your own toilet before you start pointing out anyone else’s sins.
NoraCraig jk105
You pretty much deflected from my point.
The Bible sanctions slavery, a human literally owning another as property. My boss does not own me as property. My boss cannot whip me. Donny supports this system.
The Bible commands us to kill disobedient children. So does Donny.
The Bible demands that we execute anyone who works on the Sabbath. So does Donny.
I am totally up for a sociological debate, however, my point is Donny sanctions slavery, killing disobedient children, executing those who work on the Sabbath. And he believes his religious views should be civil law.
NoraCraig DonnyCase Excellent comeback my last statement. What you claim is true, and I can agree with it on every angle as it is “perceived” in your wording. However, Jesus did object to sin on every level of his teachings, and would not condone it. recall the money-changers in the temple as Jesus walked in and found them. His response was not one of overlooking their actions, it was anger, turning over tables, and throwing them out. Jesus would never allow sacred grounds to become defaced in sinful actions as he stood by and did nothing. My stand is to make a stand in out lords place to keep his temple clean. Not to force gays from having sex, but to keep them out of his holy grounds and away from locking up his followers. Again, excellent strategy on your argument!! I respect your position and views, however we are in a war with satan and we cannot afford to just roll over on this. Next they will force legalizing child sex, or even worse. We are Gods warriors and we must support his holy grounds.
DonnyCase NoraCraig WWJD my friend. If I remember correctly, Jesus was being pushed by his followers to interfere with Roman rule, accept a crown of king on earth… ie: to get involved in CIVICS.
I’m no biblical scholar, you’d probably be able to find his words to his decibels on that topic easier than I could look them up. My brain summarizes it into Jesus sticking firm on his “kingdom” being that of heaven, not of earth.
He didn’t run for office (or accept a crown). He wandered around teaching and preaching the path to heaven. Jesus was about saving souls not imposing civil law on “unbelievers”.
So… I’m not “supporting the side of sin”, I’m following the path of WWJD to the best of my abilities. If he would not FORCE others to be sinless, it surely is not my place to try to do that.
NoraCraig I can appreciate your well thought out and very intelligent response. Understand that I agree with what you say to the point that it does not interfere with the lords design and written spiritual beliefs. This applies to Muslims and any or all other indignities looking to pursue their beliefs. When actions started to remove God from schools, I was okay with it, when they took down the ten commandments in court rooms, I accepted that as what you claim here. Now I see fellow Christians going to jail, gays getting Gods name mixed in with their sinful parade and I have to draw a line. If Christians do not stand up for our lord, he will not stand up for us! Just read your bible to know what I am saying. Justice is a creation of our heavenly father, not something man came up with on a whim. Marriage is a heavenly design for families, not a platform for sinful passions in abominations. I do not stone anyone, that’s not my forte, however, i do stand up for right and let wrong know where it is wrong. You supporting sin sides with the wrong master, and one cannot serve two masters.
jk105 JK… you should not be throwing stones either… Though, I defend your 1st amendment right to do so, verbally.
Slavery has always existed and STILL exists.. Every employee is “enslaved” to the will of the “master” actually.. Only difference from old days is you can pick your “master”… <grin> And the masters are not allowed to flog you, though they can easily make your life miserable in other non-physical ways.
I don’t think you’re up for a sociological debate on the nature of man. But, in short form, MAN (the race of vs gender) forms the same system of “pack dominance” over and over.. Like bees always do the hive thing with a queen, wolves an alpha female, and so forth, MAN always recreates the basic feudal system. ie: Lords, Knights, Surf’s, Artisans & Academics, etc..
Only the names change (boss vs master or lord) and the method of punishing those who don’t adhere to the hierarchy’s rules.. Such as having you head cut off for back-talking the King, verses being fired for back-talking a CEO…
The beauty of America is the ability of any individual to CHOOSE where they want to be in that tribal hierarchy and not being locked into level by birth (class system in India, lords & kings, etc.) But that doesn’t mean the structure, like the shape of the bee hive cells, ever changes… it doesn’t.. We’ve just put limits on the power of those on top to abuse those on the bottom… and we’ve a ways yet to go on that, too.
DonnyCase jk105 Donny, it’s not my place to render judgement on the soul’s of others. We’re a tad bit beyond stoning the adulterer and things like kicking our daughters out onto the streets should they get pregnant out of wedlock.
Do please remember that anyones personal religious beliefs and CIVIL LAW are two different things. Does “morality” take a hand in determining the nature of our laws? Of course it does. But… no religious group (in America) has the right to impose their view of morality on others.
THINK… separate YOU beliefs from the LOGIC of allowing religion to rule. REMEMBER we have towns now in the USofA that are Muslim strongholds. Should THEY be allowed to throw over US law and impose Shriea law.
THINK… get head out of Bible for a minute and LOOK at what the effects would be if the issue was associated with the beliefs of ANOTHER religion, not ours. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander ya know. We MUST protect the rule of law.. when that breaks down you have anarchy which is way more dangerous to America than two individuals of the same sex who just want to LOVE each other without folk throwing stones at them.
Deflection.
Why do you dodge?
You worship a god who sanctions slavery. You worship depravity.
I pray for your deformed soul.
jk105 I don’t hide my name and identity as I speak about my stand on the matter. But I understand you not wanting anyone to see who you are, it would be shameful and may cause public rejection. Your best argument has fell into simple mimics of fabricated hogwash. You have no facts, no written support or nothing other than other gays and a failed court system saying you have a right to sin, and force it on others. The last thing you need to do is insult the lord, then attempt a prayer of any sort. You should repent, and go, sin no more. Otherwise suffer the despair that surrounds your sinful lifestyle. Remember, God can fix your problems, no matter how bad they may seem. Ask and ye will receive. Have a nice day.
Poor Donny Old Boy! Still in the cha cha heels dancing around the question. You look darling!
Deflection.
You worship a God who sanctions slavery.
You worship depravity.
I pray for your deformed soul.
jk105 DonnyCase NoraCraig Same sex serves no purpose except to destroy. It is your act that kills populations with aids and lacking population growth. The God I worship designed a perfect family structure where communities can be built. If you want to destroy mankind, then go do it without bringing the most perfect institution into your sick world. You have nothing but satan in your spirit, so stop praying and start burning. I agree all that sleep with another of the same sex should meet the lord for his explanation,, oh wait,, they will. Noahs ark mentions the same thinking you have just before the flood. Good day satan.
DonnyCase jk105 NoraCraig I take your promiscuous deflections to be an acknowledgement on your part that you worship a god who sanctions slavery and commands us to kill disobedient children.
Thank God I live in a free country, one that doesn’t enshrine your barbaric so-called religious beliefs into law, one which gives me the religious liberty and constitutional guaranty to be same-sex married.
You worship depravity. Why do you worship a god who gives humans the right to own other humans as property?
I pray for your deformed soul.
jk105 NoraCraig DonnyCase Laying with another of the same sex is a sin, It is an abomination with consequences that will be paid! Bring marriage and God into such an existence is inviting destruction to the entire nation. If you want to burn, it is fine with me, just don’t try to take my nation with you into hell!!! Nora, supporting such sinful existence in active or passive manners means you accept the sin and will be judged according to your words. Love the sinner, hate the sin! Never give in to the sin! JK105 is most likely satan posting in here to gather supporters to destroy humanity!
NoraCraig jk105 DonnyCase The difference between the two of us is I would never deny him marriage rights based on his right wing fundamentalism. Yes, I do onto others as I want others to do onto me. He has every intention to use his brand of right wing fundamentalism to deny me that very right. Moreover, I have no problem defending his freedom to believe in the literal word of the Bible. But that freedom does not mean his toxic views are above criticism. Moreover, I am free to put his feet in the fire and ask if he is consistent in his literal interpretation of Bible–which would then include sanctioning slavery.
jk105 DonnyCase Well, the two of ya are now presenting to the readers the perfect reason we have to have civil law and not be ruled by religious beliefs.. <grin> You may want to take your theological debate out to the parking lot… Do you really think humans are ever going to agree with each other on religion? If so got a great bridge to sell ya in Do-Wa-Ditty. The SPIRT of Christianity can be summed up with one rule.. The Golden Rule… do unto others.. If you want freedom for your beliefs, then protect the freedoms of those who disagree with you MOST….
DonnyCase jk105
Donny Old Boy, why do you keep deflecting? I ask a simple question and you put on your cha cha heels and dance around it!
Why do you worship a god who demands we murder disobedient children?
I pray for your deformed soul!
jk105 DonnyCase You attack the lord, then pray to the lord? That makes sense as you also pervert the bible to meet your own deceitful agenda. I rank you as occupied with satanic spirits that poison your mind. It would be wise for you to seek out another church (one that does not sanction gay marriage) and regain control of your destiny. The current path you’re on is death and misery. May the lord have mercy on your soul.
DonnyCase jk105
Poor Donny Old Boy, you keep deflecting….
Why do you sanction slavery?
The Bible even says that
slaves are property. How can this be justified?
Exodus 21: 20 and 21 says,
“20”If a man
strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall
be punished.
21″If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance
shall be taken; (M) for he is his property.
I pray for you deformed soul.
DonnyCase jk105
Yes Donny Old Boy, you advocate murdering disobedient children. I pray for your deformed soul.
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not
washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not
killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that
curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (See http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html#15,
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.html#9
1.So, does Jesus think that children who curse
their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. Matthew http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/15.html#4
2.Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who
beats his slaves “with many stripes.” Matthew: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/12.html#46
Matthew
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their
disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html#15,
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.html#9,
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/21.html#18)
Matthew: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/7.html#9
jk105 Murdering disobedient children???? That’s a new angle for gay rights.. I never said die, I only said burn. Big difference if you knew the truth.
jk105 When did slavery involve gay sinning?? Calling me deformed when you misuse the design of the human procreation for personal pleasure without creating life and often resulting in aids. Your logic is skewed. Christ defines marriage with one man and one woman,, how can he bless abominations. Get your facts straight before you put your foot in your mouth, then you might see the real truth.
No, blessed by Christ.
You sanction slavery.
I pray for your deformed soul.
So you sanction slavery and support murdering disobedient children.
You worship depravity.
I pray for your deformed soul.
jk105 The constitution lays out, how,,,, why even try to explain it to you,, You apparently have a fixed idea on how everything works. All I know is this, we will see what happens in the last days. I like how you hide your name in these chats, shows your fear of reality. Welcome to planet Donny!! where you burn if you sin.
NoraCraig DonnyCase jk105 Marriage and sin is described in the bible. It is not up to man to decide how this is changed to suit abominations. They have choice, and that choice will lead them to heaven or hell, just that simple.
Maybe on Planet Donny I am not married, but here on earth my God, my family, my church and my country say I am married.
She is out because her office now gives out marriage licenses to gay couples. Maybe the news travels slow to Planet Donny.
Yes, which is why I love you Donny Old Boy, but hate your sin of bigotry.
DonnyCase jk105 Technically, as marriage is not mentioned as a specific responsibility of the federal government, all “rules” associated with it are the responsibilities of the STATE. But, when has “technically” ever mattered when it comes to human beings and loving…. or hating for that matter. <grin>
DonnyCase NoraCraig jk105 Atta-boy… But if you love the sinner… try to do your teaching a bit more gently <grin>. It’s not our job to sort out sinner’s from saints.. “Judge not, least ye be judged.” If WWJD is your guide line being mean is stepping off the road ya know. Hugs.
NoraCraig jk105 Nora, love the sinner, hate the sin..
jk105 Well, as I stated, she should sue. Now behold how she is out, and the law that put her in was never a law. Amazing what a legal degree can do. Sorry if i ruined your hate thrill. But law is law,, Gay marriage is not because it was not under the rules of law making. Technically, married gays are not married, so that means sin,, but wait, there is no sin in the gay world, so, not being married should not matter. Have a nice day!!
jk105 DonnyCase Now, now, my friends.. Arguing religion is a never ending thing that is quite counter productive. There are more ways to interpret “God’s Will” than you can shake a stick at.
You know.. most of the religious “rules” (in any religion) are associated with PUBLIC HEALTH. Don’t know if you’ve ever looked at it that way… Like Kosher food, or the “don’t eat pork” of the Muslims (can’t figure out the cow thing with the Hindu’s).. Rules like that prevented disease.
Same for promiscuous behavior which, of course, accelerates the transmission of disease. Rules for “thou shall not kill”, or steal, are good rules to abide by to achieve a civilized society, etc.
You can argue for CENTURIES (and those arguments still go on) about who’s view of which rules from which book (old or new testament, koran, torah… whatever)… are right “in the eyes of God”… and come to no definitive conslusions.
We each abide by those rules we feel appropriate… that’s called religious liberty and no one person (or sect) has the right to impose their view on another individual. If we’re going to do things God’s way, (Jesus) Then we can preach, and we can teach, and we can TRY to get folk to see through our eyes… but we cannot FORCE others to ascribe to our belief system.
The BRILLIANCE of our Founding Fathers is they recognized that and regardless of their personal belief’s were wise enough to enshrine in our founding documents the concept of LIBERTY and religious freedom for all. They’d come from Europe where the rule of the Church was onerous and oppressive… Folk need to remember that… study history or be doomed to repeat it’s mistakes, ie: religious domination of civil government.
jk105 Well, dear… I suggest you condemn her with a tad less vitriolic language. Stick to the issue verses demonizing the individual. I agree no official has the right to have their religious sect’s “rules” trump the rule of civil law. We allow that and we’re no better than the terrorists beheading Christians in those countries ruled by religion.
I’m a religious Christian but the tenants I try to adhere to is to love my brother and be tolerant of those who think differently.. (though I might think some are idiots when it comes to policy <grin> it doesn’t make them evil.)
What many Christians seem to forget is in Chapter-1… God gave us the greatest of all gifts… CHOICE. Each individual has to CHOOSE their own pathway to the Lord, or not. So, if God gave humans choice. and God refused to force compliance with his will, it puzzles me when some use God as an excuse to limit the choices of others… rather hypocritical in my book.
But a monster, she’s not. She’s just a human being attempting to reconcile her faith with what her “bosses” want her to do. I’ve quit more than one job when my “bosses” wanted me to do things my values couldn’t stomach.. (corporate politic’s is a dirty game )
BUT <grin> it wouldn’t make headlines if she just quit, now would it. So don’t let it get your goat and rise to the bait. Headlines are INTENDED to inflame when what we need in this country is peace and calm reasoned solutions.
DonnyCase jk105 And you would guess wrong. It is a Christian Church that reflects God’s commandment to love and respect ALL His children, which would include his gay ones.
Since you are not God, I find it interesting you would decide whether or not someone else is a Christian–which is God’s job, not yours.
So you believe every word in the Bible is literal truth? So then you sanction slavery and believe in murdering disobedient children. You worship depravity.
I pray for your deformed soul.
jk105 I doubt it was a christian church if it engaged in marring same sex. I venture to guess it will burn with you in the last days. But I could be wrong,, who knows, the bible might be a lie (which I know it is not). Continue your abomination and go to your abomination church of the devil. I will stick with my depravity worship and see how it all turns out. I know the truth, I don’t simply imply my thoughts on how I want it to be.
Donny Old Boy,you worship depravity. I was same sex married in a Christian church.
Thanks for your good wishes. I honestly do not expect right wing religionists to change their minds. I also do not believe the should flatter themselves into thinking I seek their approval. I do expect, however, that they do not use government to interfere with my religious liberty and constitutional rights. That is why I condemn Kim Davis.
I call her a heinous monster because she uses the brute force of government to deny gay people their religious liberty and constitutional rights. I believe the term heinous monster is rather restrained, given her monstrous actions.
jk105 By the way JK.. I wish you and your partner a happy life.. but I do suggest you revise your expectations of “acceptance” for your life-style… and.. that.. is.. OK! You can’t expect folk with a different POV on things like sin, and hell, etc… to just throw over their religious belief’s… and that’s OK too. Be satisfied with achieving equal benefits under the law. Think of how other faith’s would treat you (cut off your head) and be thankful you live in America where if someone wants to dress up as a door knob and parade around the streets few would even blink (In NYC they’d not even bother to glance a 2nd time). That’s a marvelous thing so count your blessings and don’t let yourself fret about how others FEEL about your relationship. Be happy within yourself.
jk105 Adding blasphemy to your list is a really bold move. You also claim God is hateful as proclaimed by your own ideas which are not supported in any writing. You have a wild idea that life has no rules, and sin is fabricated. If you are right and I am wrong, then we will both do really well, however, If I am right and you are wrong,,,, and the bible is where i get my beliefs,,, unlike you,,,,looks like I can afford to be wrong,, can you?
jk105 Dude (or dudette)… you are a tad bit over the top calling Ms. Davis a monster. She is no such thing.. A monster is some guy who cuts his wife’s head off because she back sass’ him. Ms. Davis is a born-again Christian who believe’s the WORD marriage is holy and is standing up for her belief’s. Nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe. But, not matter what we may believe as individuals, to maintain a civilized and tolerant society we cannot take the law into our own hands. So I’d suggest you back off on the “heinous monster” crap. It really does make you look rather lame ya know.
Christ blessed my same sex marriage. I am sorry you worship such a hateful God.
Gay marriage legalized by mans law has no place in society or with the lords design. All who participate in it or support it will burn for eternity. Jail on earth is but a short period which will be rewarded greatly in heaven when standing up for Gods will. All sodomites and sin supporters will fry!!!
And true American leaders have taken action: The heinous monster Kim Davis used her government position to violate a gay couple’s religious liberty and constitutional rights and now she is suffering the consequences.
Laws can be overturned if leaders chose to take action!!!
So you admit this heinous monster broke the law.
No one is imposing anything on her except complying with the law.
Kim Davis used the brute force of government to deny a gay couple their religious liberty and constitutional rights.
But yet our very elected president picks and chooses which law he will follow. What comes from the head goes to the body.
But yet everyone says she can’t impose her beliefs on them but yet it’s the very thing that’s being done to her.
It’s a judge ruling not a law.
Then put him in prison. If he is in contempt, so be it.
jk105 NoraCraig CindyRyan1 In the eyes of CIVIL law, all marriage is, is a binding contract merging two individuals into one tax paying entity which defines a set of benefits for couples, and rules for how they are treated during divorce. No one has to ask government’s permission to be “married” they say they are on a hill top with NO ONE there, then they are. It’s the benefits, such as the partners health care, survivor benefits, the base rules for divorce courts use, etc.. that are important. IMHO of course <g>..
jk105 NoraCraig LOL… so what Judge is going to put the Mayor of San Francisco in jail for violating the federal immigration law? That’s what is firing up most folk I know, the hypocrisy whee it’s OK to put Kim in jail, but not the Mayor of San. Fran or the Governors of CO or WA for willfully violating federal drug laws.
NoraCraig jk105 CindyRyan1 I am partners, but I am also legally “married.” No one has a monopoly on that word, certainly not Cindy.
I am legally and religiously married to my same-sex spouse. It was a marriage performed by my pastor, in my church, in front of my friends, family and community.
So yes, if you want to take government out of the “marriage” business, fine. However, in a country that supposedly believes in religious liberty, I am also “married” in the religious sense.
jk105 NoraCraig CindyRyan1 Got it..but Cindy also has a point. The whole stupid “gay marriage” debate is incendiary ONLY because they use the word “marriage”. We could have put this whole thing to bed <giggle> decades ago if politicians didn’t get milage out of using incendiary LANGUAGE. Easy solution is scan/replace on all gov’t documents removing the WORD marriage and replacing it with “Domestic Partnership”. My hubby and I are partners, gay couples are partners, both should have equal partnership rights. It’s the use of the WORD that incites, not the rights… Thats what ticks me off… the gay community being USED by politicians to push some religious debate. Geeze Jewish & Christian folk been arguing for 2,000 years over the parentage of one guy.. Religious folk (that I know) don’t mind gay partners having equal partnership rights… they resent the hijacking of a WORD with religious connotations.
NoraCraig jk105 I agree. The gay couple, and even the ACLU, did not ask the judge to send Davis to prison. They asked for fines. It was the Republican (named by W Bush) Judge who held her in contempt of court. And it will be Kim Davis who decides how long she is going to stay there.
NoraCraig jk105 CindyRyan1 I agree. Public servants cannot pick and choose the laws they can abide by. My response is to Cindy, commented on the SCOTUS decision.
jk105 Not ever law broken deserves “prison”. You don’t get put in prison for jay-walking or breaking many other regulations. Prison is the extreme punishment. In this case there were other options. The court cannot ORDER someone to violate their beliefs… they can remove someone from interfering with services without putting them in jail. I’d have opted a restraining order to keep her out of town hall and changing the form (and stamps) to have the name of the Mayor on the marriage licensees. Or some other solution… jail was a tad bit over the top.. BUT it’s a sticky legal case when dealing with elected folk… whole different set of rules about them being removed from office.
jk105 CindyRyan1 Actually the debate is not about gay marriage at all… It’s about can a public servant pick and choose the laws they will abide, serve to the public, or enforce. Gay marriage is just the trigger for THIS instance.. But, in the case of those ignoring federal law in sanctuary cities, or the states of CO and WA with legalized pot, the triggers are different… The point is can civil servants violate the law simply because they may believe the law in wrong. You will find many on both the left and the right agree they can’t, even though they may disagree with the rightness of the law in question.
Why must folk TRY to make this a simply Y/N issue.. It’s not. The Donald did fine. Those who are public servants, elected, hired, or appointed, can’t pick and choose which regulations they are going to enforce. Look BEYOND this one case and imagine… what if a Muslim DA refused to press charges on another Muslim who murdered their wife as an honor killing (shire law). Would that be OK. All who work for any company, private or government, do so voluntarily. Say a law is passed police don’t like… for religious or any other reason, they can quit being police or enforce the law…. Extend this concept beyond this issue, my friends, and you’ll see if we want a government NOT run by religion, we can’t have gov’t employees bringing their religious law into civil law. We have a process to change bad laws. Sanctuary cities are the same thing… all the cops who refuse to follow federal law should be fired… but their challenge is not as individuals… there it’s the local politicians who are the cause for gross and massive civil disobedience by putting themselves above the law.
CindyRyan1 Poor Cindy Old Girl! It is not easy being you! If you don’t like living in a country in which you don’t get to force your right wing version of religion down the throats of minorities, then you can always move to Iran. Gays can’t get legally married there. That must be your definition of a “great” country.
Finally, someone who understands the truth! I am so aghast at the number of people I know who believe that SCOTUS is right. What has become of the intelligence of our nation? My hope is that we can turn it around and live again in a great nation!
Ross M Bagne
Heinous Monster Kim Davis is in jail for contempt of court. She refused to obey a judge’s order. In essence, she is guilty of misconduct.
A public servant is guilty of official misconduct in the first degree when, with intent to obtain or confer a benefit or to injure another person or to deprive another person of a benefit, he knowingly:
(a) Commits an act relating to his office which constitutes an unauthorized exercise of his official functions; or
(b) Refrains from performing a duty imposed upon him by law or clearly inherent in the nature of his office; or
(c) Violates any statute or lawfully adopted rule or regulation relating to his office.
522.030 Official misconduct in the second degree.
(1) A public servant is guilty of official misconduct in the second degree when he knowingly:
(a) Commits an act relating to his office which constitutes an unauthorized exercise of his official functions; or
(b) Refrains from performing a duty imposed upon him by law or clearly inherent in the nature of his office;
I believe Donald Trump is right. The issue is, a government employee, elected to county clerk, is refusing to abide by what is what the Supreme Court has ruled, like it or not. Not an owner refusing to bake a cake (which I believe an owner should have the right to refuse service. May not be good for business, but the owner should have that right.) In this case, we are talking about Government. If an Evangelical, Mormon, Protestant, Presbyterian has different beliefs than Catholics, and each one refuses on their particular belief, will this be okay? If a Muslim working behind a counter, government agency and refuses to provide service because of religious belief, would this be okay? Whether you like a law, policy, or rule, you have to abide by it regardless of religion, or otherwise. If this is allowed, where does it end. Should Muslims be allowed to wear their “garb” on their face to have their picture taken for the privilege of having a driver’s license? No! They should abide! The fellow who refused to serve a police officer was fired, and for good reason, but it was the manager’s discretion, not government. This country has many religions, and many laws WE don’t like, but while I am a Christian, in a government, I must abide and if not, where does it end? If this county clerk wants to exercise her religious beliefs, she has a choice. She can abide during working hours, or oppose, protest, burn the building down, but outside working hours.This is a very slippery slope and WE must not allow such actions, if we want to preserve ALL rights, especially religious. Be Careful What You Wish For! Don’t like a law, go through the process and change it. I think Huckabee is wrong and is inciting an issue that should be clear in our heads! If you don’t agree, just look at what is happening in the God Forsaken part of the world.
Poor Donald STILL does not understand. The Supreme Court DOES NOT MAKE LAWS. The Congress makes laws. So far the Congress has not made ANY laws concerning this issue. The Judge put Kim Davis in JAIL for no valid reason. She HASN’T VIOLATED ANY FEDERAL LAW!!! I hope the Donald re-thinks this issue, but I still support him.
The heinous monster Kim Davis used government force to deny a gay couple their religious liberty and constitutional rights. She is in jail for breaking the law. I am sorry to hear you are not okay with putting people in prison for breaking the law.
The Donald’s take on jailing of Kim Davis is RESONABLE in that he states “We are a nation of laws” and discusses alternatives to her problem, like Gays can go 30miles to get a lic. elsewhere, leave her out of it, OR she could let her deputy clerks do it> DUH
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